Photo by Chad Brady.
Matt Coles teaches law at UC Law San Francisco. He was deputy national legal director of the American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU) from 2010 to 2016 and ran the ACLU’s National LGBT Project before that. He served as legal advisor to Supervisor Harvey Milk and drafted what became San Francisco’s sexual orientation nondiscrimination law. Before sitting on a panel for the Zócalo event “When Does Protest Make a Difference?,” he joined us in the green room to discuss growing up as a political kid, winning gay marriage, and “Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell.”
What is your favorite view in San Francisco?
From the top of California Street looking down toward the Bay Bridge. I probably get up there once or twice a month.
What has surprised you most about your work?
About teaching, which is what I’ve been doing for the last eight years, what surprised me most is, at least at UC Law [SF], how much it doesn’t live up to the academic reputation that the politics are so vicious because the stakes are so low. Basically, it’s a sweet bunch of people who are all quite nice to each other.
For work at the ACLU, I think I’m surprised how well we did as quickly as we did on LGBT rights.
What’s some advice you give to your students?
Make sure you get the basics right. They’re really essential to success in law school. In college, you go to lectures designed for the big picture. Law school is intellectual trade school, you have to treat it as a job and be ready to absorb all that stuff and make sense of it.
What is one memorable moment you’ve had in court?
I argued one of the first “Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell” cases in front of the Ninth Circuit right after lunch. When I was doing an oral argument, I would usually have five to seven minutes ready. I ended up getting through six minutes in my slot, and said, Well, if the court has no further questions? … The presiding judge piped up and said, Hold on right there, counsel, we’ve all just come back from lunch and a bit drowsy, but you’re not getting off that easy. I won’t soon forget that.
Do you have a personal “don’t ask, don’t tell” policy?
I really subscribe to: There’s certain things that a gentleman doesn’t tell.
You’ve said you were a political kid. What did that look like?
My father was a politician. From early on, I was steeped in politics. I would go to city central committee meetings and state Democratic conventions. I was at the 1968 Chicago convention. We got out of town before the riots. But I did get to stand on the podium during testing.
What has been one of your proudest achievements?
One of my proudest achievements was to corral a bunch of LGBT leaders, and out of a series of discussions over two days, create a plan for winning marriage. That document proved enormously valuable to the movement. Also, convincing the ACLU that the way to win a battle that is both legal and political is to lead with the heart, not head. You had to wrap the work you are doing in stories that connect to the core message.
Who is your dream dinner guest—dead or alive?
Thurgood Marshall. Brilliant lawyer, smart strategist. He also had a great sense of humor.
What would you serve Thurgood?
Fish. The man loved fish.